When someone mentions Brian Cox, the first question invariably asked is: which Brian Cox are you talking about? Do you mean Prof. Brian Cox, physicist, or actor Brian Cox, from Succession? So imagine how annoying it must be for Professor Brian and actor Brian Cox! Which got us thinking: What if we invited both Brians to sit down together for a long chat—something they’ve never done before?
Oldham-born particle physicist Prof Brian Edward Cox rose to fame presenting the wonders of the solar system and the forces of nature for the BBC. Before that, in the 1980s and early 90s, he played keyboards for D:Ream, topping the UK charts with the future New Labor anthem Things Can Only Get Better in 1994. His new world tour, Horizons: A 21st Century Space Odyssey, returns home to a week-long residency at the Royal Opera House in London in August and then continues across the country until October.
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Dundee-born actor Brian Dennis Cox began working professionally in the 1960s, joining the National Theater in the 1970s and the Royal Shakespeare Company in the 1980s. His 50-year career in film, television and theater has earned him Olivier, Bafta and Emmy nominations and awards. He appeared in The Bourne Identity and was the first actor to play Hannibal Lecter in 1986’s Manhunter. He currently stars as media mogul Logan Roy in Succession, for which he won a Golden Globe for Best Actor. good actor in 2020
The two Brians met via Zoom for a wide-ranging conversation about the universe, Legacy, Shakespeare, and everything in between. Prof. Brian and Actor Brian, to you…
Prof. Brian Cox One of the themes of my live shows is the possibility that we are currently the only intelligent civilization in the Milky Way. The challenge is the possibility of self-destruction – through inaction or deliberate action – because we lack the wisdom to control our own power. And what a tragedy that would be, given that we may be the only island of meaning in an ocean of 400 billion suns.
Actor Brian Cox I think it’s incredibly possible. I was raised Catholic, but have become quite an atheist in the last few years. Religion is confusing because we don’t recognize who we are as people. One of the reasons theater is so important to me is: why play? Acting is like religion, but religion is humanity. Religion is a dead end because it provides peace, but we are still in dangerous danger of destroying ourselves.
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Prof Brian Religion is clearly an attempt to explore, explain and understand our place in the universe. So you mean acting is the same but in a more detailed and truthful way?
The actor Brian, I think so, Brian. The acting is real. Religion is understandable, but we look to God, Mohammed or the Pope, but we do not look to ourselves. Shakespeare says it all: hold the mirror up to nature. He describes it very clearly in Hamlet’s advice to the players. This is why Shakespeare is such an extraordinary genius. Religion distracts us, saying: if we follow this path, we will get salvation. Honestly, I think it’s clay, and the older I get, the more I think of it as clay.
Prof. Brian It’s interesting what you say, Brian – shifting the responsibility to some outside source. [American astronomer] Carl Sagan is one of my heroes. His 1994 book, Pale Blue Dot, reacted to an image of Earth taken from beyond Neptune as a single pixel. One line reads: “We must understand that no one will come to save us from ourselves…”
Actor Brian I couldn’t agree more with him!
Prof. Brian The word “meaning” does not sound like a scientific concept. But this is a property of the brain, of consciousness, and of life.
Actor Brian That’s right.
Prof. Brian So what if there is nowhere else within millions of light years for atoms to assemble into these remarkable patterns that can think, feel, and write like Shakespeare? The idea that meaning comes from us is very important because it means we have to take responsibility.
Actor Brian Brian, I couldn’t have said it better. Human experience is the most responsible thing you can admit. And that’s why I act.
There’s a moment in Succession where Logan realizes how lonely he is, which I found incredibly moving Brian Cox (Physicist)
Professor Brian You call Shakespeare the great genius. What intrigues me is that there is research from the playwright or writer, but additional research from the actor. Of all the characters you’ve played, who has been the best vehicle for exploring the depths of the human condition?
Actor Brian You have to embrace the idea of selfishness because acting is all about confusion. I had a speech yesterday [filming season four of Succession] like Logan Roy, talking about human beings as economic units. I ask, “What is a man?” but distract yourself by asking, “Is the cheesecake good here?” The great thing about Logan—and why I don’t see it the way everyone else does—is that he’s a man about to lose it because he has adjusted to something that has failed to give him satisfaction, namely that he cannot cope with his own children. The question I first asked was, “Does Logan Roy love his children?” And [creator] Jesse [Armstrong] said, “Oh, yes, he loves them very much.” He constantly makes mistakes and becomes a brutalist. This is why he is such a fascinating character; it is so complex. I had another wonderful moment yesterday – I shouldn’t give it all away, but I don’t care – when Logan realizes that he has no other friends and how lonely he is, which I found incredibly touching. Again, this is part of the human condition; this feeling of loneliness. That’s why there’s a heroic element to Logan because he’s in a deep struggle with himself. And as you said: the problem is that we are in a constant deep struggle with ourselves.
Prof. Brian This complexity in human beings is that we find it difficult to deal with both characters and problems that are multifaceted. If you look at quantum mechanics—the most esoteric part of all science—you’re forced to think of electrons as particles. But they are also elongated wavy things that fill the room. Of course, it is neither; it’s much more complicated than that. You have to keep these two ideas in your head, even though they seem mutually exclusive.
Coke on the can… actor Brian in Legacy. Photo: Macall Polay/AP
Actor Brian I couldn’t agree more.
Professor Brian It’s like with Logan. It’s so easy to say: he’s bad.
Actor Brian The rule for an actor is: never judge your character, because we don’t judge ourselves. We can be hard on ourselves, but we don’t say, “That’s a villain.” If you look at Iago, his reasons may be terribly wrong with terrible consequences, but he is locked in a destructive journey. Dramatic art is grounded in the complexities and contradictions of human experience because we live in such contradictory paradoxes.
Professor Brian I often advocate science education from the earliest possible age. Not because you need to know how many stars are in the Milky Way, but because of the intellectual tools; nature is multifaceted and complex. Likewise, experiencing Shakespeare can be beautiful, so you make the same argument for a broad education.
Actor Brian Absolutely. That’s why we have the same name, Brian! It is quite unusual and very harmonizing to talk to you in this way because you realize that despite our different aspirations, we are on a very similar journey.
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Prof. Brian Science is necessary—but certainly not sufficient—to understand our place in the universe. It is necessary, for example, to know that we are not at the center of the universe. If you go back to the ancient Greeks – they weren’t idiots, but they thought the earth was the center of the universe because what they observed was that everything was falling towards the earth.
Actor Brian And that’s the terrible thing about the ego. Ego makes you think you’re the center of the universe, and that’s the curse of the performer. We must be careful not to believe our own mythology.
Professor Brian So what does it mean to live a finite, fragile life in an infinite, eternal universe? You will not find meaning through the eyepiece of the telescope. Music, literature, art, science are different aspects of the same attempt to explore what it means to be human.
Actor Brian I think that’s the absolute key question, Brian. “Why us?” is the question that man wrestles with as long as we live.
Professor Brian, I know you’re quite political because I often get people shouting at me on social media about something you’ve said in question time.
Actor Brian Ha ha ha ha!
Prof. Brian You probably get this a lot—and I get it to a certain extent—people saying, “Stay in your lane. You are a physicist. Tell me about physics. Do people say, “You’re an actor. I like you on Succession, but I don’t want to hear your political views.
The star… Prof Brian Cox accepts his day job at the SSE Arena, Wembley. Photo: Nicky J Sims/Nicky Sims/Getty Images/McIntyre Ents
Actor Brian All the time. I shouldn’t have political views, but I do, but it also has to do with my story. I’m currently shooting a documentary [for Paramount+] about money because money is the one thing no one ever likes to talk about. Like religion, money is the great unifier, but also the great divider. The rich always defend themselves, but poor people never defend their poverty. The wealth gap is such a painful experience it’s heartbreaking.
Prof. Brian Would you…
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